I've been noticing that we don't have enough melee in raids to need two TSA hunters. I wanted have a serious discussion about someone picking up Expose Weakness next patch since it's buffed nicely.
We've got roughly 7 people a raid that would benefit from the AP. Need some help figuring out if 7 * EW buff is more than loosing your own dps.
First thing I guess is to figure out how much Agl we could even pull off.
Changing all gems and enchant to agl I can hit 535. Under raid buff I might break 600.
So, 150 AP * 7 people. I have no clue what that would be.
Thoughts and potential agl from you guys?
Hunter Specs
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Hunter Specs
by Valkri on Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:32 am
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by kkay on Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:45 am
Survival blows.
The reason no one goes deep survival is for a few reasons:
Low AP due to not getting any real boosting talents except for Lightning reflexes and I guess 4% ap next patch on top of Exposed Weakness.
Secondly, the deeper tier talents blow and don't have that great synergy with the new gear. If you look at all the items for hunters now, they have NO crit compared to the older sets. The entire survival tree relies on having a huge critrate, but hell, I doubt any of you can pass 30 atm.
Also, you don't need AotV, you can basically use Hawk most of the time, but of course you can't get IAOTH anyway if you want to go past 35 points, which you don't, so you might as well take it.
Full survival is basically a 42 point tree if you get Readiness, which means you can only have 4/5 Mortal Shots. This skips Counterattack and Wyvern Sting as well, which would each just take more points from Mortal Shots, which works way too nicely with Survival's critrate.
Like you said yourself, there's very few melee as it is. EW or TSA, either way very few people will get it.
Personally, I would go 5/20/36. Take EW, TotH for mana, and then get IAOTH and Mortal Shots.
And then find gear with decent crit and agi but low int.
AKA T3.
The reason no one goes deep survival is for a few reasons:
Low AP due to not getting any real boosting talents except for Lightning reflexes and I guess 4% ap next patch on top of Exposed Weakness.
Secondly, the deeper tier talents blow and don't have that great synergy with the new gear. If you look at all the items for hunters now, they have NO crit compared to the older sets. The entire survival tree relies on having a huge critrate, but hell, I doubt any of you can pass 30 atm.
Also, you don't need AotV, you can basically use Hawk most of the time, but of course you can't get IAOTH anyway if you want to go past 35 points, which you don't, so you might as well take it.
Full survival is basically a 42 point tree if you get Readiness, which means you can only have 4/5 Mortal Shots. This skips Counterattack and Wyvern Sting as well, which would each just take more points from Mortal Shots, which works way too nicely with Survival's critrate.
Like you said yourself, there's very few melee as it is. EW or TSA, either way very few people will get it.
Personally, I would go 5/20/36. Take EW, TotH for mana, and then get IAOTH and Mortal Shots.
And then find gear with decent crit and agi but low int.
AKA T3.
- kkay
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by Samelina on Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:36 am
Hi KK
Mind Freeze is a supercooled ice cream that you keep in a freezerbox, and when you want to Mind Freeze someone, you take the ice cream out of the box and jam it into the opponents mouth, thus interrupting them (cause they can't speak).
This is also the reason Mind Freeze is the only interrupt with huge delay: We have to get it out of the freezer first.
This is also the reason Mind Freeze is the only interrupt with huge delay: We have to get it out of the freezer first.
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Samelina - Posts: 829
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by Precision on Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:46 pm
It's a viable raid spec, I've seen 900 Agi fully raid buffed on a survival hunter. It's a valuable asset raidwise, with readiness/misdirection in sticky situations, just don't expect to put out near as much dps as Marks as you're sacrificing AP for pure agi, but your crit rate will increase, and expose weakness is about the same bonus as TSA, you're just giving it to the whole raid instead of just your group. With at least a 30% crit rate you're basically ensuring that EW is up at all times.
Lois: You're drunk again.
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Precision - Posts: 135
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by Stonem on Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:17 pm
If you are looking to benefit the raid a survival build with expose weakness plus Imp Hunter's Mark is very strong, however I would suggest efficiency over Imp Hunter's Mark simply because survival hunters tend to have much less man then other builds.
There are a few ways to go with your survival build. Kkay suggested putting only 36 points. This is a decent build but I personally found Master Tactician to be a better use of skill points then IAoTH.
Now if you do decide to put 41+ points in to survival there are a few ways you can go. One path, which is more versatile for both pvp/pve is to put 41 points in to survival but skip ToTH and instead get Wyvern Sting, MT, Readiness, and 5/5 Mortal Shots. If you are looking for strictly dmg you may want to skip Wyvern Sting and Readiness and instead put your points in to ToTH (although it only reduces your mana consumption it will allow you to go all out for longer). You will end up losing Deterrence and Wyvern Sting (making it much harder to pvp) but it is better for raiding.
I would not worry about losing your damage. It is entirely possible to have 1800-1900 AP with 37% to crit. (these kind of numbers are generally seen with the arena gear, however you end up with a dangerously small mana pool). You wont hit as hard as you used to but you'll be hitting harder more often. Balanced correctly it rounds itself out.
However, I do have to agree with Kkay on gear. It is much harder for a survival hunter to get gear then it is for a MM hunter. There is simply not enough gear out there with a large amount of AGI on it. Instead you'll find lots of gear trying to suppliment AGI with crit rating and AP. Although your damage would be the same the idea of expose weakness is lost.
An idea that I think many raiding hunters look past is beast mastery. For a long time the build was looked at as taboo by the raiding community but there have been many changes that make it the most powerful of all three trees. If done correctly you will see a significant increase in your dmg output.
First they have made many boss fights pet friendly, requiring minimal pet control. In addition to simpler boss fights pets now have avoidance and hunters have a more raid friendly mend pet. Combined, these allow the hunter to keep their pet on the boss for most of the fight. Occasionally you will need to pull your pet back, but you'll be able to send them back in shortly.
Second BM hunters have been given some great tools which include Imp Revive Pet (a must have for BM hunters), BW, TBW, Serpent's Swiftness, and of course Ferocious Inspiration. (if you are looking to benefit the raid this is a great option, just remember to be placed in the Caster group because unlike TSA you can boost the dmg of even the casters).
As a side note, as a BM hunter you would be able to use the Scorpid Sting "trick" and have your pet's poison ticking for 800+ dmg every 3 seconds. However, this will likely be nerfed in the near future.
If you are looking to change your build to benefit the raid survival is a great choice but I think you should atleast give BM a try. The hardest thing is getting used to using your pet as often as possible, while still keeping it alive. If you are having trouble keeping it up try getting into a group with a shadow priest and always having mend pet up. This tactic seems to work well against bosses such as Void Reaver.
If you do decide to try BM I suggest making a macro that casts your trinkets, BW, Rapid Fire, and Intimidation to maximize your cooldowns. Don't be affraid to burn your cooldowns often, BW is only 2 minutes.
I hope this helps
Stonem
GL of Irrelevant
There are a few ways to go with your survival build. Kkay suggested putting only 36 points. This is a decent build but I personally found Master Tactician to be a better use of skill points then IAoTH.
Now if you do decide to put 41+ points in to survival there are a few ways you can go. One path, which is more versatile for both pvp/pve is to put 41 points in to survival but skip ToTH and instead get Wyvern Sting, MT, Readiness, and 5/5 Mortal Shots. If you are looking for strictly dmg you may want to skip Wyvern Sting and Readiness and instead put your points in to ToTH (although it only reduces your mana consumption it will allow you to go all out for longer). You will end up losing Deterrence and Wyvern Sting (making it much harder to pvp) but it is better for raiding.
I would not worry about losing your damage. It is entirely possible to have 1800-1900 AP with 37% to crit. (these kind of numbers are generally seen with the arena gear, however you end up with a dangerously small mana pool). You wont hit as hard as you used to but you'll be hitting harder more often. Balanced correctly it rounds itself out.
However, I do have to agree with Kkay on gear. It is much harder for a survival hunter to get gear then it is for a MM hunter. There is simply not enough gear out there with a large amount of AGI on it. Instead you'll find lots of gear trying to suppliment AGI with crit rating and AP. Although your damage would be the same the idea of expose weakness is lost.
An idea that I think many raiding hunters look past is beast mastery. For a long time the build was looked at as taboo by the raiding community but there have been many changes that make it the most powerful of all three trees. If done correctly you will see a significant increase in your dmg output.
First they have made many boss fights pet friendly, requiring minimal pet control. In addition to simpler boss fights pets now have avoidance and hunters have a more raid friendly mend pet. Combined, these allow the hunter to keep their pet on the boss for most of the fight. Occasionally you will need to pull your pet back, but you'll be able to send them back in shortly.
Second BM hunters have been given some great tools which include Imp Revive Pet (a must have for BM hunters), BW, TBW, Serpent's Swiftness, and of course Ferocious Inspiration. (if you are looking to benefit the raid this is a great option, just remember to be placed in the Caster group because unlike TSA you can boost the dmg of even the casters).
As a side note, as a BM hunter you would be able to use the Scorpid Sting "trick" and have your pet's poison ticking for 800+ dmg every 3 seconds. However, this will likely be nerfed in the near future.
If you are looking to change your build to benefit the raid survival is a great choice but I think you should atleast give BM a try. The hardest thing is getting used to using your pet as often as possible, while still keeping it alive. If you are having trouble keeping it up try getting into a group with a shadow priest and always having mend pet up. This tactic seems to work well against bosses such as Void Reaver.
If you do decide to try BM I suggest making a macro that casts your trinkets, BW, Rapid Fire, and Intimidation to maximize your cooldowns. Don't be affraid to burn your cooldowns often, BW is only 2 minutes.
I hope this helps
Stonem
GL of Irrelevant
- Stonem
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- Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:42 pm
by Precision on Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:33 pm
Jahi wrote:Precision wrote:Look what I started.
App denied. Have a good life, sir.
<3
BUT JAHI ILU
Lois: You're drunk again.
Peter: No, I'm just exhausted 'cause I've been up all night drinking.
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